Dialogues with the West – 4

About Creation

In furtherance to our dialogues on the creation, find here another one, an interesting and zesty conversation which started with my following question on the subject:

How do you justify that God created everything that exists here?

John says: I think or maybe I speculate that God began His creation and has indeed through the cover of what we call evolution and catastrophic events (i. e. Ice ages) molded/modified His original work to transform it to where we are today. I imagine there will someday be another significant modification to alter His work again.

If you will, I believe He indeed does at this moment of His, favor mankind (thank God) and I believe some of the significant evidence of this is indeed our evolved brain. It you examine the morphology of our brain it is almost like a garage-modified combustion engine. It looks like parts have been added over time and it has indeed changed to give us a significant advantage and perhaps richer experience on this 3rd rock from the sun.

Now some of what He originally created has in time evolved to become creative in nature. Thus, now His creation has now evolved to multiple points of creative potential and has become significantly more complicated to decipher…

Landle says: Why would a perfect, all knowing, higher power need events like ice ages and meteor impacts to modify the original work? This is where the logic falls kinda short, wouldn’t he have already known this from get go and did it right the first time?

John: Perhaps He intercedes not unlike a loving Father, He gives every opportunity to individuals to make the correct decisions; yet, when it gets to what He only sees as a critical moment He knows to intervene significantly to make the correction?

Muhammad Abdullah Javed (MAJ) says: What Landle has pointed out believe to be the developmental stages of human history. As far the creations, they have been created all at once. Man has been created with knowledge and wisdom. Some animals & plants developed and perished due to specific circumstances. This is how we can perceive the reality.

John: Perhaps if you focus precisely on the stages of “man” it will become clearer. He brings it along in what we see as a slow progression; yet, He is not in our timeline he is above ours. The past/present/future is all one with Him. Thus it happens…

MAJ: Yeah that’s true. The evolution of man theory has been discarded and termed it as quite unrealistic. If man has evolved then why that process has stopped why not he is progressing now?

John: Who ever said it has stopped? The evolution of “Man” is far from complete… We are a work in progress and perhaps the next stage will be significantly unique once again and may even be so subtle that it will not be recognized…

MAJ: Quite interesting John. Could you please explain in what sense the evolution of man is in progress? Is it same as the theory says or is there any other explanation?

Eliz says: There can be no justification for the claim that a God created existence. First there has to be an understanding of ‘existence’ and that has yet to be defined. There must also be a definitive understanding of your god and that too, is elusive. What you are asking is, did an undefined being create an undefined existence?

It would seem that such a question is at best, naive, presumptuous and very self-servicing. There are at least 100 billion galaxies in the universe, which expands to about 90 billion light years, that is 90 billion X 6 trillion.

To give an idea of size considers that the smallest known ‘thing’ is 10-35 power and the largest; the universe is 10+27 power. The site may be of interest and you can find it here:

http://htwins.net/scale2/

In all this existence exists and we are, in size, somewhere about the middle and as large as the universe is smaller is bigger.

This then is what you are saying, that a god created us, to include the Ebola virus to live and die on an insignificant speck of rock coming from nowhere and going to nowhere in a universe that may or may not the only one.

MAJ: Eliz, thanks for a profound reply. I think we should try hard to understand the realities. But at certain point we need to understand that our senses have their own limitations.

Robert says: How to justify it? You mean prove it? (Dictionary def.)

That does indeed pose a problem for many. First, people have to define what they mean by “God,” since that word can mean vastly different things to different people and cultures. Second, people must prove that their particular “god” (out of the thousands of deities of human history) is the one responsible for “creating” everything that exists.

Third, a person must provide convincing evidence that everyone in the world should reject what they believe up to this point and begin to follow their god.

Questions like this have been posted time and time again here, Abdullah. Most of the time it ends up that all the theists quotes their specific holy book or some object or event in nature that they believe “proves” their god. The believers are never dissuaded and the non-believers are never persuaded.

MAJ: Hi Robert thanks for the reply. The sole intention of posing question was to understand the way people think about the Creation. Thanks for the additions. As far the reality of the phenomenon, proving or disproving is bound to happen, but I think the human intellect is much fairer and understands the reality.

…………………..

About extremism

Now, let me take you to another important subject, rather it’s a hot topic of debate the world over, that is Extremism. My friend B. Greg wrote an article on the possibility of Christians and Muslims peaceful coexistence in a democratic set up and raised some serious concerns in the backdrop of ISIS killings, declaration of Caliphate, terrorist attacks and subsequent developments. My comments on his write paved the way for a lively conversation between us:

Muhammad Abdullah Javed (MAJ): (After reading the article) yes we can. Being humans we should try and work out on some common grounds. Suppose it’s impossible for both Christians and Muslims to live together, then one should answer the following:

  1. Society does depend on these two communities, isn’t it, for what?
  2. For what reasons people dwell in the society? Don’t they have social obligations? 
  3. Is it not true that every person who lives in the society shares both benefits and loses with others?
  4. If the followers of religions do not unite then how come the religion, to which they belong, helps them stay united with their own followers?

B Greg: I understand what you are saying, but as long as there are radicals such as ISIS doing what they do, it will never work. The fact is. Jesus came to be the Savior. Islam does not accept that and sticks with the teachings of a man that is dead. Christians follow the teachings of a man that was killed, but rose again. In the end, all will claim Jesus Christ is God in Son form.

This is where the problem lies; the Muslim religion wants only what they want, and there is no leeway. Christians are taught to love mankind no matter their beliefs. Islam teaches to hate mankind unless they believe in the Islam way. I will agree to disagree. What you state sounds great on paper (i.e internet) but is not reality.

MAJ: For arriving at some common grounds we need to work on what is common between us. Arguments and counter arguments will never allow us to sit together and chalk out a common program.

B Greg: Sir, by no means am I wanting to argue, but at this very moment, in the name of Allah, the group ISIS is beheading and killing thousands of Christians in Iraq. While all of us sit comfortably, there are innocents being killed because of their beliefs. What do you propose should be done about this?

I am in agreement with you that God wants us all to live at peace, but how do we when this is happening?

MAJ: See if anyone is killing innocents in the name of religion is totally against the spirit of Islam. It clearly says that killing of one innocent is equal to killing of the entire humanity. So if anything is happening of this sort, as you said, it should be condemn in strongest possible terms.

B Greg: It is happening. Daily it is happening:

http://www.christianpost.com/news/christian-beaten…

This is where we have issues. This needs to be stopped. There are many who are claiming Islam beliefs who are supporting this. How can we possibly have talks of peace when such things are happening?

MAJ: I understand your pain sir and I am equally finding myself with you sharing your burden of sorrow and grief. If media reports are to be believed, that act is highly condemnable. You know Islam has honored the humanity by saying that the humans have been created on the face of Allah. That Allah has made man superior over all other creatures. It has been strictly prohibited from slapping on the face not to talk of inhuman killings. I don’t find any reasons why and on what basis such barbaric and cruel incidents can take place? How these people justify their acts in the name of religion? Certainly they are not amongst us. May Allah shower His abundant mercy on all of us and provide a peaceful atmosphere so that we can engage ourselves in the acts that please Him.

B Greg: I appreciate your sorrow. I must ask you a question now; are women inferior to men by your scripture?

MAJ: I remain with you sir, about the question you raised, will write in detail and let you know.

B Greg: Thank you my friend. I do respect you, as you are willing to have a man-to-man conversation without belligerence. I do await your response, as this is one area that I have seen is a divide between Christianity and Islam.

MAJ: Hello Greg wrote a detailed article on the question you posed, please go through.

Note: This article was on the following points:

  • Introduction of Quran and Sunnah
  • Men and women single entity
  • The ignorant attitude towards women
  • The blessings of being a woman
  • The horizon of women’s rights
  • Women – an architect of humanity

B Greg: You wrote a very good article and very detailed. I must say that I am honored to call you my friend. I will also now say that if all Muslims believed as you do, I would have to “eat my words”. I will share the article you wrote here as it is very well done.

Where our problems now lie, both in Islam and in Christianity is radicalism. Yes, I am taught to attempt to bring you to follow Jesus, as you are also taught to attempt to follow Muhammad. If we reject the invitation, it doesn’t mean we are enemies. On both sides, there are those who assume that rejection means we are enemies.

May be, just maybe my friend, we can all see this in another way; we can still be friends even though….Thank you sir and as I must say God Bless You!

MAJ: I am thankful to Allah that a few lines of mine have exerted lively impacts on your way of thinking. I am of the opinion Sir, sharing views have always been beneficial. I would appreciate if we continue our conversations with a beneficial spree of letting each other know what we think we don’t know…..

B Greg: My friend. I feel a unique friendship with you. I also do respect your words. If only all of your faith would have this pattern of thought; and if only all who claim Christianity would truly follow the teachings of the Word of God, then truly, you may be right; we may be able to live peacefully together.

I must say that if we were nearer each other, I would be honored to sit and speak with you man to man; friend to friend. I truly wondered how you would answer this question; you did quite well.

Again, we are back to the fact that if each people that belong to the faiths truly honored the words in their scriptures, we could truly have peace.

May be there is a possibility….may be. I will pray to God the Father, Jesus the Son through the Holy Spirit (the Trinity) as you pray to Allah that we all can be brothers and sisters in love. May you truly have a great evening my friend.

I must say that never in a thousand years did I ever think I would respect a person of the Muslim religion. I have been given a lesson by God. No, I will never convert, nor agree with Islam, but I will call you my friend and I am honored to do so. Much respect to you and may you do well.

MAJ: Thanks a lot Greg I am also honored that you are my friend. We should judge the person by his pure heart not by his faith, because it’s a fact that even among the followers of same faith do feuds occur and misunderstanding prevail. It means it is the heart to heart contact that binds us and opens the doors to understand the essence of faith. I don’t mind if you are a follower of Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him), what matters a lot to me that you shouldn’t be unaware of what I believe, I shouldn’t be harsh on you as the Quran says: “To you be your way, and to me mine”. (Chapter 109: Verse 6). And also advise us “Revile not you those whom they call upon besides Allah….” (Chapter 6: Verse 108). In fact my faith (Imaan) completes only when I love for you what I love for myself as taught by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Yes you are right rejection of invitation should not make us enemies. I think radicalism persists because of the inaccurate understanding of the religion, and the silence of majority has caused the situation to crash to the worst. If we come forward to build an ideal society, we can. I don’t know what preventing us from coming together and sharing what commonness we have in our religions. Let us hope for a new beginning Sir. With lots of good wishes and prayers for you, May Allah shower His abundant mercy on you and your family. Aameen

…………

© Muhammad Abdullah Javed – May 2016


Do you want to say something? feel free to post your comments below or contact: [mdabdullahjaved@gmail.com].


Articles in Urdu @:

https://muhammadabdullahjaved.wordpress.com/

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2 thoughts on “Dialogues with the West – 4

  1. Beuatiful conversation. The dialogue must go on for evolving a hormonius society. May Allah give wisdom and knowledge to involve ourselves in such type of constructive work.

    Liked by 1 person

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